Scandals and Spiritual Masters: A discussion with krishnan kartha in the facebook

Dated 19th January 2015

Sreenath Raveendran posted this question in Krishnan Kartha' s timeline on the scandals about spiritual masters and the following discussion ensued :

Dear Kartha Sir, just read the article on J.Krishnamoorthy..

Lives in the shadow with J.Krishnamurti by Radha Sloss
Actually it was a new information...... But a question arise in my mind that every enlightened persons, mystics, masters even prophets had to underwent through controversies..... (I think) not even a single person is out of the circle. Now that about JK was known (for me).
Then how could we measure the authenticity of the words from them?
You have once told that, NJANA is important than NJANI, but Sir, the the Njani is also important?
"Yath yadh aacharathi sreahtahaa, tadh tadhevam itharo janaaha  Sayath pramaanam kuruthe Lokasthadanuvarthathe" - if these lines from Gita is to be taken true, Does the way of their life strongly influence the followers?? -
A detailed discussion followed among others as follows:- 

Kiran RajanPaul : All are humans. JK is no exception. Sex is a Physical and mental need. Lets appreciate he could keep that relation for 18 long years. Its not that simple. Worth appreciation.
January 14 at 9:36pm ·

Sreenath : OK chechi, I'm not against that, but then why can he disclose that relation in the public? As given in the article, 'he maintained secure, and secret relation....' what was the need fir it to be secret?
January 14 at 9:51pm ·

Sreenath : Also not for that thing, I raised the question.... Have you noticed the last portion that of Mr.Willie, brother-in-law of Rosalind, who tells that

"..that the reason he had no interest in what Krinsh had to say was because he had witnessed early on the discrepancy between what Krinsh said and what he did.." If this being true, how could one teach something which he had not shown through his life?
January 14 at 10:10pm 

·

Spk Sudhin:  to Kiran RajanPaul : Sanyasa/Brancharya kind of life style is not for persons who have " Sex is a Physical and mental need ". For them Grishastha kind of life style is prescribed. You can go through such life style and eliminate that need and finally can achieve your goal.. There are lot of great rishis who lived such a life style so I can't see anything worth appreciable in maintaining a secret relationship for 18 years...
January 15 at 6:53am ·

Spk Sudhin: to Sreenath : Now regarding the controversies. In my opinion there is a possible reason for that controversies. The personal magnetism created by spiritual practices are irresistible. So it's easy to get attracted to it. Consider a situation , if one of his devotee who have " Sex is a Physical and mental need " attracted to it and approach her guru to meet this need. If the guru have same needs it will end up in sexual relation. But what if Guru is beyond such needs and not allowed for that...? Then she will felt shame,anger,revenge and create all kind of controversies around him.. So now think how we can evaluate a jnani not known to you personally...
January 15 at 7:25am ·

In my opinion the best option is - go through the emotional-intellectual analysis of your Guru(Jnani) and intellectual analysis of his teachings(Jnana). That's why I once told you , for me all other teachings are just an aid to understand the value of teachings of my guru.... 

January 15 at 7:06am ·

Sreenath : to Spk Sudhin :
//if Guru is pure//whether engaging in sex is impurity?
How we can evaluate a jnani not known to us personally// I think, we can only do that, because all the jnanies we are taking into consideration were went back from this planet after completed their duties, before we born (atleast before we 2 born ), in such a case, we can only evaluate them with the help of articles, memories of the peoples lived with them etc...
January 15 at 7:08am ·

Spk Sudhin:I mean purity that he is gone beyond such needs...I not used it in a negative manner
January 15 at 7:21am ·

Sreenath :That evaluation is partial Sreenath that's what I meant... Please read once more the last comment... Emotional - Intellectual analysis of guru is missing there

January 15 at 7:22am ·

Sreenath : Spk Sudhin Ninte aa comment verunnathinu munpaanu njan ee comment commentiyathu ( I had posted my comment before your comment appeared)
January 15 at 7:26am ·

Ok angane verumbo namukku innu jeevichirikkunna, namukku nerittu access ulla gurus ne mathralle analyse cheyyaan pattoo? (if that is the case , we can analyse only living gurus to whom we have access? )
January 15 at 7:27am ·

Spk Sudhin: That's only my opinion...Sree Ramakrishna gave different advises to Swamy Vivekananda and Swamy Brahmananda. Master Mahashaya was given entirely different advises. We cannot choose any of these advises and follow. That was why I said, close association between Guru and shishya is important for the teaching to be taken into consdieration

January 15 at 7:30am · 

Sreenath : I agree with that totally. Nearness is important. That is Upa-nishad. But in order to understand Sri Ramakrishna we will have to resort to Gospels of Sree Ramakrishna or talks and books by these disciples. Since  Swamy Vivekananda had become so famous and thought provoking, we believe that his master must have been greater.Not because we know Sree ramakrishna ! His contemporaries are not living with us now!

January 15 at 8:57am ·

Sreenath : If physical proximity is important , how can ekalavya become greater than Arjuna? 

January 15 at 8:58am ·

Spk Sudhin: I dont know whether a physical skill can be compared with a spiritual accomplishment. I believe that Ekalavya was not evolved mentally for that physical accomplishment and hence Drona took the former's thumb as dakshina. Skills in wrong hands are dangerous.

January 15 at 9:28am ·

Sreenath: Ekalavya could have practised with natural skill without making an idol of  Drona and worshiping it  because he had surrender for the Guru that he cut off his thumb, which is curucial in archery, and gave Drona as dalshina when it was asked..

Ekalavyanu venamenkil prathima onnum undaakkaathe, in born skill of archery vachu practice cheyyaarnnu... But aa guruvinodulla surrendering kondalle angane cheithathum chodhichappo appozhe viral murichu koduthatum?? 

(Ekalavya could have practised archery without making an idol and all. But was it due to his reverence for his guru that he kept an idol and practised?)  

It's a great mental attitude, I think
January 15 at 9:31am

Baiju NT: ചിന്തിക്കേണ്ടുന്ന രസകരമായ ഒരു വിഷയം. അത് ജെ കൃഷ്ണമൂർത്തിയുമായി ബന്ധമുള്ളതുകൊണ്ട് മാത്രമല്ല; മിക്കവാറും എല്ലാ യോഗികളുടെ ജീവിതത്തിലും സ്വതവേ സാധാരണക്കാർക്ക് ദഹിക്കാത്ത “ചുറ്റിക്കളികൾ” കാണാൻ സാധിക്കും. സെക്സ് ഗുരു എന്ന് വിളിക്കപ്പെട്ട ഓഷോയും, മദ്ദലന മറിയവുമായി വൈവാഹിത ബന്ധമുണ്ടെന്ന് ആരോപിക്കപ്പെടുന്ന യേശുവും ഇത്തരം യോഗികളിൽ ചുരുക്കം ചിലർ മാത്രം. ഗെയിൽ എന്ന ഓസ്ട്രേലിയൻ വനിത സ്വന്തം ആശ്രമത്തിനുള്ളിൽ നിരന്തരം റേപ്പ് ചെയ്യപ്പെട്ടപ്പോൾ അമൃതാനന്ദമയി ഒന്നും ചെയ്തില്ല എന്ന ആരോപണമാവും ഇക്കൂട്ടത്തിലെ വിവാദങ്ങളിൽ അവസാനത്തേത്. ഏതായാലും, സാധാരണക്കാർക്ക് കല്ലുകടിയായി കിടക്കുന്ന ഇത്തരം പ്രത്യേകതകൾ എല്ലാ യോഗികളിലും കാണാനാവുന്നതുകൊണ്ട് പരിമിതമായ എന്റെ അറിവിൽ നിന്ന് പൊതുവായ ഒന്നുരണ്ട് കാര്യങ്ങൾ പറയാം.

1. സ്വന്തം അമാനുഷികതയെ മറച്ച് വച്ച് “അയാളും നമ്മളെ പോലെ വെറുമൊരു സാധാരണക്കാരൻ” എന്ന സൌകര്യപ്രദമായ ഒരു പുക മറ പൊതുസമൂഹത്തിൽ സൃഷ്ടിച്ചെടുക്കാനും, ആ പുക മറയിൽ അധികമാരാലും ശ്രദ്ധിക്കപ്പെടാതെയും പ്രത്യേകിച്ച് സമൂഹത്തിന്റെ ശല്യമില്ലാതെയും വന്ന കാര്യം രഹസ്യമായി ചെയ്തുതീർക്കാനും, കതിരിൽ നിന്ന് പതിരിനെ വേർതിരിക്കാനെന്ന പോലെ തന്നിലേക്ക് ആകൃഷ്ടരാവുന്ന “ആവശ്യമില്ലാത്ത” മുട്ടനാടുകളെ വെറുപ്പിച്ച് അകറ്റി നിർത്താനും യോഗികൾ എന്ത് “വിഡ്ഢിവേഷവും” കെട്ടാൻ തയാറാവും എന്നത് മനസിലാകേണ്ട ആദ്യ സത്യം. അതുമൂലമുണ്ടാവുന്ന ലാഭനഷ്ടക്കണക്കുകളെ കുറിച്ച് വിലപിക്കുന്നത് വിവരദോഷികൾ. യോഗിയെ സംബന്ധിച്ചിടത്തോളം ഊറിച്ചിരിപ്പിക്കുന്ന ഒരു ഹാസ്യനാടകം. ഈ നാടകത്തിന്റെ സംവിധാനവും തിരക്കഥയും സംഭാഷണവും യോഗി തന്നെ നിർവഹിക്കുന്നത് കൊണ്ട് പൊതുസദസ്സിൽ നാടകം വിജയിക്കുമ്പോൾ യോഗിയ്ക്ക് ഓർക്കാർ കിട്ടിയ സംവിധായകന്റെ പരമാനന്ദം. നാടകത്തിലെ വേഷങ്ങൾ ചെയ്യേണ്ടുന്നത് ആരെല്ലാമായിരിക്കണമെന്നും ആരൊക്കെ എന്തൊക്കെ ചെയ്യണമെന്നും തീരുമാനിക്കുന്നത് യോഗി തന്നെ ആയതുകൊണ്ടും, വില്ലന്റെ തല്ലുകൊണ്ട് പല്ല് പൊഴിഞ്ഞാലും, നാട്ടുകാരുടെ ആട്ടും തുപ്പും കേട്ടാലും യോഗിയ്ക്ക് ഒരു കുന്തവുമില്ലെന്ന് മാത്രമല്ല, കഥാപാത്രങ്ങൾ ശരിയ്ക്ക് അഭിനയിക്കുന്നുണ്ടെന്ന് കാണുമ്പോൾ ഒരു സുഖം. ഇങ്ങനെ “ഒരു പ്രത്യേക രീതിയിൽ” സുഖിച്ച് ജീവിക്കുന്ന കക്ഷിയാണ് യോഗി -- സാധാരണക്കാരന്റെ ലോജിക്കിന് അപ്പുറം നിൽക്കുന്ന പ്രതിഭാസം. അതുകൊണ്ട്, യോഗിയെ സംബന്ധിക്കുന്ന എന്തിന്റെയെങ്കിലും കാര്യകാരണങ്ങൾ ബുദ്ധികൊണ്ട് ചികഞ്ഞ് കണ്ടെത്തുക അസാധ്യം.
January 15 at 2:17pm ·

Baiju NT 2. അമാനുഷികനായ ഒരു യോഗി കാര്യങ്ങളെ/വസ്തുക്കളെ സമീപിക്കുന്ന വിധത്തിലും നാം സമീപിക്കുന്ന വിധത്തിലും മോരും മുതിരയും തമ്മിലുള്ള വ്യത്യാസം ഉണ്ട്. പഞ്ചേന്ദ്രിയങ്ങളുടെ പരിമിതി മൂലം അപൂർണ്ണമാണ് നമ്മുടെ അനുഭവങ്ങളും ആസ്വാദനങ്ങളും എല്ലാം. സമ്പൂർണ്ണനായ ഒരു യോഗിയുടെ ആസ്വാദനശേഷിയുടെ 20-30% ആസ്വാദനശേഷി മാത്രമേ സാധാരണ മനുഷ്യർക്ക് ഉള്ളൂ. അതുകൊണ്ടുതന്നെ, ജീവിതത്തെ അതിന്റെ പൂർണ്ണതയിൽ ആസ്വദിക്കുന്നത് ഒരു യോഗി മാത്രമാണ്. ആസ്വാദനത്തിലുള്ള ഈ ബ്രഹ്മാണ്ഡ വ്യത്യാസം മൂലം യോഗിയുടെ സമീപനങ്ങളെ മനസിലാക്കാൻ നമുക്ക് കഴിയാതെ വരുന്നു. ഉദാഹരണമായി, ഒരു സ്ത്രീയെ പുരുഷൻ സ്പർശിക്കുമ്പോൾ അതിൽ കാമേച്ഛയുണ്ടാവുമെന്ന് സാധാരണക്കാരായ നാം ധരിക്കുന്നു. കാരണം, സ്പർശനത്തിലൂടെ നാം അനുഭവിക്കുന്നത് കാമസുഖം മാത്രമാണ്. കാമത്തിനും അതീതമായ ആസ്വാദനം സ്പർശനത്തിലൂടെ കണ്ടെത്താൻ കഴിയുന്ന യോഗി ഒരു സ്ത്രീയെ തൊടുമ്പോൾ അയാളും കാമേച്ഛയേടെയാണ് ആ സ്ത്രീയെ തൊട്ടത് എന്ന് നാം തെറ്റിദ്ധരിക്കുന്നു. മാനുഷികമായ അളവുകോലുകൾ കൊണ്ട് അമാനുഷിക വ്യക്തിത്വങ്ങളെ അളക്കാൻ ശ്രമിക്കുമ്പോൾ ഇതൊക്കെ സ്വാഭാവികം. അതുകൊണ്ടുതന്നെ, യേശുവിന് മദ്ദലന മറിയത്തോട് ഉണ്ടായിരുന്നത് പരിശുദ്ധമായ ബന്ധമായിരുന്നെന്ന് എത്ര പറഞ്ഞാലും ഒരു കുഞ്ഞും വിശ്വസിക്കില്ല. അച്ഛനും മകളും ഒരു മുറിയിൽ ഒരു രാത്രി കഴിച്ചുകൂട്ടിയാൽ തന്നെ പിറുപിറുക്കാൻ തുടങ്ങുന്ന സമൂഹത്തിലെ കപടസദാചാരവാദികൾക്ക് മുമ്പിൽ വാദിച്ച് ജയിക്കാനൊന്നും യോഗി മെനക്കെടാറില്ല. നാട്ടുകാർ എന്തും ധരിക്കട്ടെ എന്ന് കരുതി യോഗി എല്ലാം അനുവദിക്കുന്നു, മുൻ‌പ് സൂചിപ്പിച്ച നാടകസംവിധായന്റെ ആർജവത്തോടെ.

ഏതായാലും കൊള്ളാം. കാര്യങ്ങള് നടക്കട്ട്...
January 15 at 3:04pm ·

Sreenath :to Baiju NT : Ettaa ivide Krishnaji athinu vendi poyo illayo ennathalla preshnam.....( the problem is not that whether Krishnaji went for that or not)
As you said, the experience of a yogi is something different (higher) than an ordinary man......

But oru saadhakan avante spiritual life munnottu kondu pokumbol avan reference edukkunnathu mastersne aayirikkille, anneram "Krishnajikku aavaankee pinne enikkum aayaalenthaa" ennum paranju ithe paripadikku pokumbol avan anubhavikkunnathu just a human feeling aayirikkumello.... Mathramalla, eventually athinte chinthakalilekku manassu maarunna aal thante lekshyatheyum poornnamaayum marakkille?

But when an aspirant may make reference to such people and get misguided. He may think if JKi can have it he can also have. 

January 15 at 2:31pm ·

Baiju NT ഹത് ശരി. ഹപ്പോ അതാണ് കാര്യം. ( So that is the problem!!! ?)
January 15 at 2:54pm ·

Kiran RajanPaul : Totally wrong Spk Sudhin . There is no such thing as brahmacharya is celebacy. Its a misconception.
January 15 at 3:00pm ·

Sreenath :to Baiju NT Athe
"............experience of a yogi........Mathramalla eventually............manassu maarunna aal thante lekshyatheyum poornnamaayum MARAKKILLE?? Para para...
January 15 at 3:04pm ·

Kiran RajanPaul :jeevikkan enthina oru reference Sreenath . (why do you want a reference for living Sreenath?)

Guidance is within you..............Live as it is natural to you. Follow your inner voice.
January 15 at 3:18pm ·

Sreenath : Enkilum athine kandethunnathu vare nammal purathekku anwshichu kondirikkille chechi....... ( Still we may search around till we get truth)

Ithrem panam undaakki kazhinjalle bill gatesnu manassilaayathu, ithinu prethekichu vila onnum illennu, pakshe namukku athu valya sadhanam thanne alle ippol...  ( after making this much money Bill Gates realised that money is nothing, but for us it is still great no?)

Likewise ullile athmaguruvine kandethum vare athine kandethiyavare nokki padikkaan namukkoru pravanatha verille ? ( so untill we realise we may learn by refering to others)

January 15 at 3:21pm ·

Kiran RajanPaul :17 vayassil guruvine kandethiyathu kondu Sreenath TheSelf-Seeker nte chodhyathinu utharam Ariyilla mone. ( Since I found my guru at the age of seventeen, I cannot answer your question, son.)
January 15 at 3:46pm ·

Kiran RajanPaul : But... Try to listen your inner voice.
Oro jeevitha sandarbhathilum inganeyaanu vendathu , ithu cheyyu Ennellam parayunna oru voice ellavarilum ille. ( there will be an inner voice to guide in each context.. no?)
January 15 at 3:48pm ·

Sreenath :    17 is not a small number
January 15 at 3:49pm ·

Kiran RajanPaul :Utharam Ariyatha chodhyangal aa voice nodu chodikku... repeat aayi. ( Repeatedly ask questions to the inner voice ..)

Answer will come out in some or other way.
January 15 at 3:49pm ·

Sreenath :Chechikku 17 vayassil kitti, but enikkippo ee 24aam vayaasilaanu kittunnathu....Athum pakshe Guru-vinte oppomulla jeevithamalla, masathil orilkalo matto kaanum, chat cheyyum athra maathram....

( Sister, you got it at 17, and I got only at 4. That even not physical proximity !  A meeting happens Once in a month and rest by chat and phone calls) 

 For the remaining time, with those holy words, I've to live without his physical presence.... So just reading and observing the lives of masters at their early times is the only way... Angane vannoru doubt aanithu.. ( So this doubt came like that) 

January 15 at 3:56pm ·

Spk Sudhin: to Kiran RajanPaul : I mean it as celibacy. I think vivekananda, even ramakrishna deva used it as so... There is also another interpretation for it but for the time being we can take it as Sanyasa life style. Then is there anything worth appreciating in maintaining a secret relationship? I will appreciate him if he do it publically. What restrict him from doing it publically?
January 15 at 4:18pm ·

Spk Sudhin: to Baiju NT : ഇന്നു പലര്‍ക്കും ഒരു യോഗി എന്നാല്‍ നല്ല ഒരു orator അണ്.. സാധാരണകാരെ ആകര്‍ഷിക്കുന്ന പ്രധാനഘടകവും അത് തന്നെ ആണെന്ന് തോന്നുന്നു.. Baiju ചേട്ടന്‍ പറഞ്ഞ കാഴ്ചപാടുകള്‍ സ്വീകരിക്കുകയാണെങ്കില്‍ അത് പല കള്ള-സന്യാസിമാര്‍ക്കും ഉപകാരം ആകുകയല്ലേ ഉള്ളു.. ? എങ്ങിനെ ഒരു യഥാര്‍ത്ഥ യോഗിയെ തിരിച്ചറിയാന്‍ സാധിക്കും..? ( brother Baiju, Today , many consider orators as yogis. If your explanation is accepted, that will only helpful for frauds to be safe. How can we find out a true yogi? ) 

Baiju NT to Spk Sudhin: ഉപകരിക്കട്ടെ. ഉപകരിക്കുന്നതിൽ എന്താ കുഴപ്പം? വേഷം കെട്ടുന്നവന് വേഷത്തിന്റെ പ്രയോജനം കിട്ടുന്നതിൽ തെറ്റില്ലല്ലോ! വേഷം കെട്ടാൻ പലരെയും പ്രചോദിപ്പിക്കുന്ന കാരണവും ഇതൊക്കെ തന്നെ. ഏതായാലും, കള്ളസ്വാമികൾ സമൂഹത്തിന് ആവശ്യമാണ്. ആളുകളെ വഴി തെറ്റിക്കാൻ തന്നെ. അത്ര പെട്ടെന്നൊന്നും ആരും സത്യത്തിൽ എത്തിപ്പെടരുത്. എത്തിപ്പെട്ടാൽ ശരിയാവില്ല.

യഥാർത്ഥ യോഗിയെ അത്ര പെട്ടെന്നൊന്നും മനസിലാക്കാൻ സാധിക്കില്ല. കൃഷ്ണേട്ടൻ ഒരിക്കൽ പറഞ്ഞതുപോലെ, ഒരു യോഗിക്ക് മാത്രമേ മറ്റൊരു യോഗിയെ തിരിച്ചറിയാനാവൂ. അത്രയ്ക്ക് സങ്കീർണ്ണമാണത്. ജീൻസും പാൻസും ഇട്ടതുകൊണ്ട് ഒരു യോഗി യോഗിയല്ലാതാവുന്നില്ലെന്നും, കാഷായമിടാത്തതുകൊണ്ട് മാത്രം ഒരു യഥാർത്ഥ സന്യാസി സന്യാസി ആവാതിരിക്കുന്നില്ലെന്നും മനസിലാക്കണം. വേഷത്തിലും രൂപത്തിലും നടപ്പിലും ഭാവത്തിലുമൊന്നും ഒരു കാര്യവുമില്ല. ഈ ബുദ്ധിമുട്ട് നിലനിൽക്കുന്നതുകൊണ്ടാണ് യഥാർത്ഥ യോഗികൾ സ്വസ്ഥമായി ജീവിച്ച് പോകുന്നത്. സ്വയം വെളിപ്പെടുത്തണമെന്ന് തോന്നുന്നവർക്ക് മാത്രം ഒരു യോഗി സ്വയം വെളിപ്പെടുത്തുന്നു. മറ്റുള്ളവർക്ക് അയാളൊരു പാൽക്കാരനോ, പാത്രക്കാരനോ, ബീഡിതുറുപ്പുകാരനോ മാത്രമായിരിക്കും. പ്രകൃതിയുടെ അത്ഭുതകരമായ വിളയാട്ടം തന്നെയല്ലേ ഇത്????

Kiran RajanPaul : Not interested in argument Spk Sudhin nor in criticising JK or anyone.I have read in Nitya Yati 's book that brahmacharya is not celibacy.
January 15 at 5:01pm ·

Spk Sudhin:to Kiran RajanPaul : Me too chechi... The thoughts are diverted.. Then we can conclude it with words of famous "SEX GURU" OSHO ..

 "The fourth is brahmacharya. This word is really very difficult to translate. It has been translated as sexual continence, celibacy. That’s not right, because brahmacharya is a wide word, very vast. Sexual celibacy is a very narrow thing; it is one part of it but not the whole of it. The word brahmacharya means living like a god. The very word means living like a god, living a life divine. Of course, in a life divine, sex disappears. 

It is changing the whole energy from the sex center to the higher centers. When it reaches to the seventh center of man, the sahasrar, then brahmacharya happens. If it remains in the first center, the muladhar, then sex; when it reaches to the seventh center, then samadhi. The same energy moves. It is not being against it; rather, it is an art how to use it.A man who is indulging in sex is a suicidal man. He is destroying his own energy. He is like a man who goes to the market, gives his diamonds, and purchases pebbles — and comes home happy that he has made a great bargain! In sex you attain such a little, a tiny moment of happiness, and you lose so much energy. The same energy can give you tremendous blissfulness, but then it has to move on a higher level."

January 15 at 5:18pm ·

Spk Sudhin: to Kiran RajanPaul : Don't take it is a argument or criticizing... വാദിക്കാനും ജയിക്കാനുമല്ല അറിയാനും അറിയിക്കാനും ആണെന്ന് കരുതിയാല്‍ മതി...
January 15 at 5:26pm ·

Kiran RajanPaul :Osho sexguru alla , Spk Sudhin . Many of his advices guide me like finding our own center and many.

January 15 at 7:04pm ·

I think the Energy you mention rotates in between centers. Our Energy may be between swadhidhtaanam msnipoorakam moolaadharam.
January 15 at 7:06pm ·

J Krishnamoorthy onnukoode janichu swayam vishadheekarikkatte (Let J krishnamoorthy be born again to explain all these!)
January 15 at 7:09pm ·

Spk Sudhin: Chechi: osho sex guru allannu enikariyam... ( I know Osho is not a sex guru) 

But epol elavarum sexual relatioshipine support cheyan oshoyude paru parayunna oru trend kandu varanundu atha njan OSHO athala udeshichathu ennu parayan aa quotes itathu... ( But now many perople quote osho to support their immoral traffic so I quoted his won words to show that he was against free sex and all )
January 15 at 7:20pm ·

Spk Sudhin: : Pine Yeti Brahmacharya ennathu celibacy alla ennu paranjunnu soochipichulo... Athinte opam kurchu karyam koodi yeti parayunnundu chechi athum shradhichitundavumalo..  ( And there is mistake in your assertion that Nitya Chaithanya Yati told the Brahmacharya is not celebacy)
January 15 at 7:22pm ·

Sreenath : to Spk Sudhin : example?
January 15 at 7:26pm ·

Spk Sudhin: യതി ബ്രഹ്മചര്യം celibacy അല്ല എന്ന് പറയുന്നത് അതു ഒരു വിവാഹം കഴിഞ്ഞ ഒരു വ്യക്തിക്ക് അന്യമല്ല എന്ന് പറയാന്‍ ആണ്... അതിന്‍റെ ഒപ്പം തന്നെ ഭോഗാസക്തിയോടെ ചെയുന്ന കര്‍മ്മം വ്യഭിചാരം ആണെന്നും പറയുന്നുണ്ട് ( ref : കുടുംബശാന്തി ഒരു മനശ്ശാസ്ത്ര സാധന).. അവിടെ ലോക സംഗ്രഹതിനായി സല്‍-പുത്രനമാരെ നല്‍കുന്നതിനു ആണ് ആ ബന്ധം എന്നും Brihadharanyaka Upanishad വ്യാഖ്യാനത്തില്‍ സൂചിപിച്ചിടുണ്ട്...

(Nitya Chaithanya Yathi has stated that Brahmacharya is not celebacy was to show that it is not untouchable for a married person. In his book " family peace, a psychological sadhana," he adds that luscious greed in sex is adultery. In his treatise on Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, he further says that sex os to make right progenies ) 

January 15 at 7:33pm ·

Spk Sudhin: to Kiran RajanPaul : ഞാന്‍ പറഞ്ഞതില്‍ തെറ്റ് ഉണ്ടങ്കില്‍ തിരുത്തി തരണം യതിയുടെ കൃതികള്‍ വായിച്ചിടുള്ള അറിവേഎനിക്കുള്ളു..
January 15 at 7:40pm · ( I have only read Yati not been with him so correct me , Kiran Rajan paul sister)

Kiran RajanPaul :Sariyanu Spk Sudhin . (right Sudhin)
But sex ne kurichu parayan dhairyavum sathyasandhathayum kaanichathu Osho mathram aanu. ( But only Osho was brave enough to speak on sex)
January 15 at 9:43pm · Like · 1

Spk Sudhin: @ Kiran RajanPaul : അങ്ങിനയാണോ ചേച്ചി? അങ്ങിനയങ്കില്‍ യതിയുടെ Brihadharanyaka Upanishad 3rd Part എന്താണ് പറയുന്നത്? പിന്നെ അദ്ദേഹത്തിന്‍റെ പ്രേമവും ഭക്തിയും എന്ന കൃതിയോ..? ( Is that so, sister Kiran? Then what does he  (Nitya Chaithanya yati) say in 3rd part of Brihadaranyka Upanishad and also in his book " Love and Devotion" ?
January 16 at 5:13am ·

Spk Sudhin: യതിയും ഒഷോയും സംസാരിചിട്ടുള്ളതില്‍ പല സമാനതകളും കാണാന്‍ കഴിയുന്നതാണ്... ഞാന്‍ മനസിലാക്കിയിടത്തോളം അവര്‍ തമ്മില്‍ ഉള്ള വ്യത്യാസം അവര്‍ സ്വീകരിച്ച രീതികളില്‍ ആണ്... ഓഷോ ഇതു വരെ നിലനിന്ന വ്യവസ്ഥിതിയെ തച്ചുടച്ചു ഒരു പുതിയ ലോകം സ്ഥാപിക്കാന്‍ ശ്രമിച്ചപ്പോള്‍ യതി ഇതു വരെ നിന്ന വ്യവസ്ഥിതിയിലെ നല്ലതിനെ സ്വീകരിച്ചു കാലത്തിനനുസരിച്ച് അതിനെ നവീകരിക്കുകയും ജനങ്ങള്‍ക്ക്‌ പകര്‍ന്ന് നല്‍കുകയും ആണ് ചെയ്തത്... ഇന്ന് ഒരു പക്ഷെ ജനങ്ങള്‍ ആ വ്യക്തിയുടെ മഹത്വം പൂര്‍ണമായി മനസിലാക്കുന്നില്ല എന്ന് വേണം കരുതാന്‍.. ( I find many similarities between Osho and Nitya Chaithanya yathi. The difference was in the methodology they used. While Osho made an iconoclastic approach, Yathi maintained existing social customs and values and brought forth novel dimension to the people. I think he was not understood properly)  
January 16 at 5:38am ·

Spk Sudhin: പിന്നെ ഓഷോ sex-ഇനെ കുറിച്ച് സംസാരിച്ചതും മനസിലാകിയവര്‍ കുറവാണ് എന്നാണ്‌ എനിക്ക് തോന്നിയിട്ടുള്ളത്... അദ്ദേഹം ആ സ്റ്റേജില്‍ നിന്നും മുന്നോട്ടുള്ള യാത്രയെ കുറിച്ച് സംസാരിച്ചപോള്‍ പലരും അതെടുത്ത് ഇപ്പോള്‍ "Free Sex"-നും "Datinginum ഉള്ള license ആയി എടുകുകയാണ് ചെയുന്നത്... അവിടെ Transformation സംഭവിക്കുന്നില്ല... ഓഷോ തന്‍റെ ജീവിതത്തില്‍ മുഴുവന്‍ പറയാന്‍ ശ്രമിച്ചത് ഈ Transformation കുറിച്ചാണ്...

( I also feel that what Osho said about sex was also misunderstood by most of his readers. When he portrayed the journey to the higher planes from sex, many took it as a license for free sex and dating... No transformation take place in such relationships.But in his whole of life, Osho was saying about this transformation!)

January 16 at 5:49am ·

Krishnan Kartha:  to Spk Sudhin and Sreenath 

Let me first say something on your comparison on the life of Ekalavya and Drona. First of all understand that Drona is an Aacharya a teacher. Acharyas are not Gurus. Acharathi ithi aacharya. One who demonstrates and teaches is an Acharya, Acharya may be selfish in his attitudes. Drona is an acharya like Sukra to Mahabali. Both are teachers. They see things from their selfish perspectives . So both indulged in imparting wrong advices to their students. If Drona was a master (guru) , he would have taught Arjuna how to come out of possessiveness and jealousy felt when the latter saw Ekalavya's calibre. Drona didnt do it. Drona wanted to take revenge on Drupada with the help of Arjuna, being a Kshathriya, But that was not possible with Ekalavya, who is not supported by an army. So Drona did what Arjuna liked. That was a selfish act. An act of shame on the whole clan of Achayas. But It heralded the greatness of the student. Sukra also acted likewise. They see the materialistic safety of their students only, not the spiritual growth. So a Master will never do such gimmicks to get applause from their disciples as, Baiju NT has commented elsewhere in this post. A Master will only do that which is beneficial for the aspirant, though the latter may feel it bitter. He is a doctor putting you in bitter potions. The Master deals with the Turth , eternal truth which is not blemished by time. Not the short rum truth but the Eternal truth. So Spk Sudhin and Sreenath . the relationships in comparison here .have polarity.
January 16 at 5:15pm 

·

The following sub discussion on the above comment by Krishnan Kartha took place
:
Spk Sudhin: Now clarified sir...January 16 at 4:38pm ·
So living with a master is the most adventurous journey...
January 16 at 4:41pm ·

Spk Sudhin: Now sir what about sreenath's basic question...?
january 16 at 4:44pm ·

Sreenath : sir.... But, sir, here the introduction of Ekalavyan is for pointing out in a different context.... That is, even though both of then are teaching 

different things, the surrendering to the teacher (acharya/guru) is same? That is aayodhanavidya padikkaan acharyante aduthu pokumbozhum athmavidya padikkaan guruvinte aduthu pokumbozhum undaakendathu ore athmasamarppanam alle?
January 16 at 4:47pm ·

Spk Sudhin: Physical skill and athmavidya is not comparable...
January 16 at 4:48pm
·
Spk Sudhin: Eniku doubt vanapol sir clarify cheythatha... January 16 at 4:49pm ·

Sreenath : Ayyo.. Not comparing those... But the innate tendency to the ultimate truth and that for studying any arts leads us to search for a capable man for fulfilling our thirst, appol undaakenda bhaavam, acharyanil/guruvingal undaakenda aa athmasamarppanam randilum same alle ennaanu chodhichathu January 16 at 4:52pm ·( so the attitude of surrender is same. No?)

Spk Sudhin: Aa samarpanam avane protect cheyumennu paranjathu athmavidyude karyathil mathramannu ( Surrender will protect the disciple only in the case of spiritual learning)
January 16 at 4:56pm ·

Krishnan Kartha: To Spk Sudhin and Sreenath :,"Sraddha is the fees at both situations basically.As Vedas put it Sraddhayaagini Samidhyathe . I translate this Shraddha as 'Sensitivity to perceive things from everything around", though scholars may have different meanings.Shraddhaavan Labhathe Jnanam, it is said. One with sensitivity to perceive receives Wisdom.But in wordly teachings the student may offer many material things also. Arjuna offered many things. Man has a tendency to offer Gurus also, material things because of this precedence. It is a custom. This makes the Gurus affluent. Who is responsible?

January 16 at 5:36pm ·

Sreenath :But Sir Guru have the choice whether to accept it or not? January 16 at 5:39pm ·

Krishnan Kartha What will you feel, Sreenath if a Guru does not accept something you offer with love?
January 16 at 5:41pm

Krishnan Kartha May I focus on the main question of this post now? January 16 at 5:41pm ·

Spk Sudhin: But sir A true guru will help him to understand and go beyond such feeling of sadness, Isn't it?
January 16 at 5:42pm ·

Sreenath : Sure 1 min pls last one, yes a sadhak may feel sad if the guru has not accepted it, but a guru need not posess anything with him, accpeting from one hand and giving it to the needy through other hand, does every gurus doing that, especially todays gurus?
January 16 at 5:44pm ·

Krishnan Kartha:  "Rightly asked Spk Sudhin. But all seekers are not upto the mark as you think. The Guru has to take care f the weak also. At first ,the Guru may accept them...but soon the true aspirant will learn what the master wants... I remember my Master's words" I will go on giving you what you want in the hope that you would ask me one day ,what I want you to ask" this is the give and take relationship between the Master and his disciple....
January 16 at 5:46pm ·

Krishnan Kartha:  To Sreenath, Gurus are doing that. They may even not touch what are offered to them. Like the Bishop of " Les Miserables" , he even provides chances for others to steal them.... So Gurus are doing that. Not the fake Gurus....
J anuary 16 at 5:49pm ·

Sreenath : Mmm K sir now please comment on my main question
January 16 at 5:53pm ·

Spk Sudhin: Now I think slowly that question is dropping away... Guru is a great mystery who am I to judge and analyze him...?
January 16 at 5:57pm ·

Sreenath :ദതും സരിയാണു... (that is also right)
January 16 at 5:59pm ·

Krishnan Kartha:  " What Kiran RajanPaul said at the outset was right. They are encased in human bodies which may have its own functions. She even appreciates for continuing the alleged relationship for 18 years. Boys get bored with the toys they get. They break the toy and probe into the inner secrets of the toys... They are people of Awareness, the Chith. But the girls enjoy the toys very much and keep them to share with their siblings to come... They are people of Experience, the Ananda. A MAster is a blend of both. So he never gets bored of a relationship. He expolres novelty everyday and enjoys the same while he retains the awareness about the relationship. Jesus knew what would be the future of Peter, Judas and Thomas... He still maintained the relationship , exploring and enjoying their aspirations... He knew Paul also. Though Paul was dangerous during the life of Jesus, he became more useful than the Apostles fed and brought up by the Christ. So Kiran RajanPaul, it is likely that a Master mentally retains the relationship despite the Law of Time, which may keep them dearer still, while they may not be nearer...
January 16 at 6:02pm

The Sub discussion on this comment by Krishnan Kartha :::::

Spk Sudhin: But sir why he made it not publically..? Is it a way to avoid some people by creating controversies?
January 16 at 6:09pm

Krishnan Kartha: Just go through my comment once more. I have used " functions" and not "biological needs" . Spk... Are we allowing the functions of the body in public?
January 16 at 6:13pm

Sreenath :OK sir.... Which means fulfilling the function of 'Ananda indriya'?

January 16 at 6:15pm · 

Krishnan Kartha : Upanishads say that Ananda is domiciled in Upastha. ( genitals) Do you mean that Sreenath? Are you referring to that ?
January 16 at 6:17pm ·

Sreenath : I mean among 5 karmendriyas the function of sexual indriya is aananda, like vision for eyes?January 16 at 6:18pm ·

Spk Sudhin Sir can you clarify little more.. .January 16 at 6:19pm ·

Sreenath :Sir I mean the function of sex indriyaa is Aanandam, among 5 karmendriyas? Like vision for eyes? January 16 at 6:23pm

Krishnan Kartha said : Yes. But before going further, you should understand the inner meaning of that..... The Upastha or the Generative organs represent the Ananda as you said, because there should be a device to introduce the glimpse of the Bliss one is rightful of. Through the sense organs Man gets introduced to the Bliss in homeopathic dose... a glimpse, a momentary encounter, a flash. So that he will search the perennial source of Bliss
January 16 at 6:30pm

Sreenath : Which means as Kiran RajanPaul said, the masters (here J) are involving in these acts just to fulfill the functions of their body, not as engaged by us?
January 16 at 6:26pm

Sreenath :  Which means as Kiran RajanPaul said, the masters (here J) are involving in these acts just to fulfill the functions of their body, not as engaged by us?January 16 at 6:26pm
·
Krishnan Kartha To Sreenath,:  Masters need not have any introduction as such.They are in continuous bliss.They do not distinguish between the short run and the long run, the transient and the perpetual.... For one who is not accustomed with the bliss, each visitation is high profiled and glorified. That is the difference. January 16 at 6:38pm

Spk Sudhin:says : ok.. Then for a person who experienced bliss Is there any need to go for that momentary bliss?
January 16 at 6:39pm

Krishnan Kartha:  to Spk Sudhin:  you are not reading the words properly.  They are in continuous bliss. ( not " a person who EXPERINCED" but a person "EXPERIENCES" . It is a continuous process. ) They do not distinguish between the short run and the long run, the transient and the perpetual.... For one who is not accustomed with the bliss, each visitation is high profiled and glorified. That is the difference. " January 16 at 6:40pm ·

Krishnan Kartha : Spk Sudhin, ok? January 16 at 6:42pm ·

Spk Sudhin: : Sir... I am still troubling with the functions and biological needs..January 16 at 6:42pm ·

Krishnan Kartha  Such bodies have NO biological needs as such.They are neither Needs or WAntsJanuary 16 at 6:45pm 

Spk Sudhin: Ok sir... Then what is the common basis of such relations?

January 16 at 6:43pm

Krishnan Kartha: """The causes."""" 

January 16 at 6:44pm · .........................................................................................................................

Spk Sudhin: As Baiju explained - a way to eliminate people..?

 J anuary 16 at 6:45pm · .............................................................................................

Krishnan Kartha Yes and No.

January 16 at 6:46pm ·

Krishnan Kartha : " What did you understand by the answer "Causes"? Spk Sudhin? 

January 16 at 6:46pm ·

Spk Sudhin:; For a purpose Master will act like that...

J anuary 16 at 6:47pm ·

Krishnan Kartha:  " " not that Spk Sudhin. I was waiting for the perception you imbibed.... Cause. The causes result in consequential relationships.... There can be 'causes' which bring about such relationships. yearnings, prayers, desires, interests etc from the others on the Master. Now when Master presents himself, the people around him perceive him through different chakras, the points of attributes. Some like his wisdom. Some likes simplicity. some his lifestyle, some his messages, some his activity on spheres, some on passivity on yet other spheres... and some on his physique, the persona, or the charisma
January 16 at 6:53pm

Krishnan Kartha: : "And have you forgotten about the "consequences"? Spk Sudhin and Sreenath?.............................................
January 16 at 6:57pm ·
first read my comment and answer what I have asked
January 16 at 6:55pm ·

Spk Sudhin: "consequence of such relation? January 16 at 6:57pm ·

Krishnan Kartha :  Yes. There is also a chain created. The cause as explained above.Then the consequence- in the form of reciprocation of the Master as alleged. And again that reciprocation ,which is the consequence for the cause above, becomes a cause for further consequences... viz.. allegations, catcalls, controversies , exodus of followers etc
January 16 at 7:08pm

Sreenath : But sir vivekanandan was also been viewed by different disciples in different chakras, but why he had not committed such a thing even for fulfilling the function of body?
January 16 at 7:05pm ·

Sreenath : Also he had,got offers, right?:-)
January 16 at 7:05pm ·

Krishnan Kartha:  I have not looked into the personal life of Vivekananda. Search somewhere else. And there is no rule that all 'masters' will be acting alike. There may be exceptions.
January 16 at 7:18pm

Sreenath : Sir I mean, when he was at America, seeing the glory of him, many ladies had approached him for fulfilling a child from him (read)

Krishnan Kartha: To Sreenath : I don't have reminiscences of being with him in America so I dont know what is the truth behind such stories.

Spk Sudhin sir, Can I clarify some doubts? The cause is the way in which / state or chakara in which the disciple see guru. Isn't it?
So rather than interacting in the same manner can guru lift his disciple to higher chakra? Because I don't think most the women who involved in such controversies not evolved by the presence of master.
January 16 at 7:14pm

Krishnan Kartha: To Spk Sudhin :, you are right. " the women who involved in such controversies not evolved by the presence of master. ". That is bringing another interesting phenomenon of Nature into light. ...... Those who are attracted to the Master through the base chakras may remain there without evolving to other stances of understanding him. I have just seen Osho commenting on the aide who left him in troubles, that they form the basement of the edifice of the teaching and are not to be seen outside. Rubbles. Not is shape. They may be ugly. But when the Master's mission go ahead, the wall may have better , shaped stones. ....
January 16 at 7:29pm

Krishnan Kartha:  :' The interesting phenomenon of the Nature I mentioned above is that, the Nature discourages CLUSTERS. We seldom find natural plantations. Plantations are made by us. The presentation of the nature is always in diversity. Here I mean, the cluster of people around some one. People joining together breaking the basic nuance provided by nature.; to go alone in the path of Salvation, to understand the hidden mysteries of it . No prophet , No Master or no Christ had been part of a group..... They were alone. They liked their Aloneness (not loneliness) to share with the inner being. They talked to the Providence through inner messages... Once they heard their trues selves , they came down to gatherings.....January 16 at 7:39pm ·

Krishnan Kartha: " So when people gather around a person, whether he is a master or not, the Nature plays its appraisal games.Not at the Master , but at the people around him. The bible says about the Jesus's encounter with the Satan. This is symbolic. He is beyond tests as such. No Satan will come to him, if at all such a one exists.... It was a lesson for the people around him. Yet another parable with love.... January 16 at 7:43pm ·

Krishnan Kartha:  So nature employs assessment games on people to see whether they are 'evolving' with what the Master says. They may not be evolving as Sudhin complaints, yet the Master takes no action on them and leave it to the Nature for judgement... Nature , when estimate that , this cluster is just CLUTTER, wasting the life of the Master, proceeds to disintegrate the group of people. This law of Nature works simultaneously with the "consequence" effect of Master's benevolent yielding to Law of Causes, viz... scandals,cat calls etc.. Okay Spk Sudhin ? January 16 at 7:51pm · ..

Spk Sudhin: Beautiful...
J January 16 at 7:53pm ·
Now every dots are connected and getting the whole picture...
January 16 at 7:55pm

Sreenath : The way is clear sir... But it will be natural that people get attracted to them? When Jesus told, 'I'm the way' the followers may have gone behind him to make a cluster, and that happened also for Lao? Also Budha promoted samgam, and Gurudevan told 'sunkadana kondu prebudhararakoo' all points to this cluster?January 16 at 7:56pm ·

Sorry Gurudevan 'sunkadana kondu shaktharaakoo' January 16 at 7:58pm ·

Spk Sudhin: Cluster is not the problem sreenath it's clutter...January 16 at 7:58pm ·

Spk Sudhin : Guru out of compassion may try to help everyone but what if we are not doing our work....?
January 16 at 7:59pm ·

Sreenath ; Ohk... But then also as sir told 'when people gather around them, nature plays its game' then those told be them is contradictory to that?
January 16 at 8:01pm ·

Spk Sudhin:How... If we are evolving it's easy to know that's only a game...
January 16 at 8:03pm ·

Krishnan Kartha : Said :" Yes. Masters are in that sense law breakers. The natural law is to evolve slowly.Taking numerous chances..... But Masters break it by providing hints ways and means...
January 16 at 8:05pm ·

Spk Sudhin:so with a master is not only a Grace but a great responsibility... January 16 at 8:08pm

Krishnan Kartha :" When Jiddu Krishnamurthy says Truth is a pathless land, we have to understand it as the refrain from the nature....Instead, we took its as paths we follow...
January 16 at 8:45pm

Kiran RajanPaul : I am so Happy to read you and meet you here dear Krishnan. Such a clarity of vision ! Amazing you are.
Many many salutations.
January 16 at 10:15pm

Kiran RajanPaul :Reason is in his (jesus) words Sreenath. 'enkilum ente ishtam pole alla , ninte ishtam pole aavatte '
January 16 at 10:17pm
Surrendering to the cosmic power completely and the depth of heart to contain all love and knowledge (jnaanam ) of the same divine are the inner secrets of all the Gurus.
January 16 at 10:20pm